Hacking SEO with Stephen Christopher

LaptopLauraCopywriting, Podcast [listen here!]

In this episode, I sit down with the SEO mastermind behind Seequs Digital Marketing, Stephen Christopher. We discuss:

  • Why Stephen keeps his introduction “simple” [3:43]
  • How Seequs helps companies build websites that “work” [8:30]stephen
  • His advice for improving SEO [9:20]
  • How he views content marketing from an SEO point of view [11:25]
  • The secret behind internal link building [16:30]
  • How he’s dealt with being a “bad” writer [17:34]
  • Why he does “daily” Facebook live videos [23:00]

Stephen Christopher (@StephenMChris) is the founder of Seequs Digital Marketing. He is passionate about being a technology marketing expert and helping companies succeed.

Seequs Digital Marketing focuses on creating digital marketing strategies that actually work to grow your business, engage with your clients and put your brand in front of more prospects.

“When Google crawls your website they are looking for user experience.” – Stephen Christopher

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Guest: Stephen Christopher

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Your wish is my command! Here are the transcripts.
(Let me know if you see any errors so I can fix them up! – transcription by Jennifer Peterson Transcription)

Intro: Welcome to Copy That Pops, the only podcast that goes deep into the psychology and strategies behind getting more traffic, more conversions and more sales from your digital copy and marketing efforts. Join Laura and her guests as they share actionable advice, step by step strategies and psychological research to help you earn more with your online business than ever before. Here’s your host, Laura Petersen.

Laura: Hey everyone, thanks for joining us today. As always, I love to share where in real time I am as I record these. I’m recording this introduction again from beautiful New Hampshire, but the interview that you’re going to hear today was captured on tape while I was living in Rome last month. We lived a two-minute walk from the Pantheon. I just loved walking Tuck, our little dog, over there nearly every day. Oh, just thinking of it makes me really miss Rome. But this interview will always remind me of our time living there because it’s actually the only episode I recorded for the show while I was living in Rome for an entire month.

I was trying to take it easy though I did guest host on my friend’s podcast called Inspired by Imua with Meghan Alonso, so check that out if you’re interested in the medical device field. Meghan shares some fascinating stories and even interviews top entrepreneurs like Kevin Harrington from the first two seasons of Shark Tank. You can search “Inspired by Imua” on iTunes or in Google and you’ll be able to find her.

My guest today is the founder Seequs Marketing Technologies, a company that helps clients make their websites work for them to achieve whatever their business goals online are. His name is Stephen Christopher, and Stephen is an SEO master. Today in the interview, he is going to break SEO down – Search Engine Optimization.

We’re going to look at the basics of what it is at its core in simple language to understand but then also build on top of that and show you how you can create content, repurpose your content, all the while improving your likelihood of being found on Google and other engines. Questions that you might have will be answered, like How often should I post? Should I try Facebook Live video and what would the benefits of that be? How can I overcome writer’s block? We cover all this and more in the interview.

Now, remember that if you ever want to grab a link or a social media account, connect with me or any of the guests that we mention but you’re not right by a computer, no worries. You can always text the word NETWORK to 44222 and I’ll send you over an email with links that will bring you right back to the site at www.copythatpops.com so you can access all the show notes for this and any other episode. If you text NETWORK TO 44222, I’ll also add you to the weekly copy tips that I email out each Wednesday. They’re quick and easy to immediately apply.

All right, so let’s jump into a great conversation about SEO with Stephen Christopher.

Laura: Well, hello there, Stephen! Welcome to Copy That Pops.

Stephen: Hey, Laura. Thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Laura: Yeah, I’m so excited that we figured out a time and got on together. I know you’re in Denver. Is that correct?

Stephen: Correct. Yeah, in Denver.

Laura: Nice. Yeah, and I’m in Rome right now, so we’re a little bit away from the time zone thing but we made it work.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely.

Laura: How do you tend to introduce yourself if you were at a new networking event, for example? I love to ask that to kind of get started.

Stephen: Yes, so the way that I introduce myself is really clean and simple: I make websites work.

Laura: Nice.

Stephen: You know, I actually worked with a guy that kind of helped me come up with that. It’s just enough to give people information about what I do and then if it’s something that they’re interested in, it gives them a reason to ask additional questions.

Laura: Yeah, I love that from a copy standpoint. It’s short, succinct, and people can understand it but it also intrigues interest to ask more, so that’s a really good one.

Stephen: Yeah.

Laura: Are you from Denver originally? I think I saw that you went to college in Florida. Tell us a little bit about your background.

Stephen: Yeah, so I grew up in Pensacola, Florida and then I went to college in Gainesville at the University of Florida. I got a degree in finance and economics. I almost had a degree in computer science. I really couldn’t figure out what exactly I wanted to do and after graduating college, I was a stockbroker for a year.

Laura: Oh, wow.

Stephen: I absolutely hated it – did not like it at all, had a headache like every day when I would leave the office and every day when I would wake up. I quit, moved to the Virgin Islands for a year, and then after I was kind of done having some fun, playing around, and finding out what I wanted to do next, it was basically a coin toss between Florida and Denver and Denver won. I’ve been in Denver I guess about 12 years now.

Laura: Oh, wow. Very cool.

Stephen: Yeah. There’s my whole background.

Laura: I know, right? What did you start doing when you got to Denver then?

Stephen: When I got to Denver, I had worked for a liquor distributor down in St. Thomas in the U.S. Virgin Islands and she was friends with Pete Coors, and so it was relatively easy for me to get a job at Coors as a distributor. I was basically a liquor rep for about a year and it was cool because I got to meet a lot of good people and I got a lot of good connections. But I just always knew that I wasn’t meant to work for somebody else – at least not in a real corporate environment.

Laura: Right.

Stephen: I had too many ideas that moved too quickly and it just never really seemed to work. I started a mortgage company with somebody that I had met in Denver and that went really well until 2008.

Laura: Oh, I wonder why.

Stephen: Yeah, right? I know. I learned what it was like to go from a profitable business to over $100,000 in debt with no income whatsoever within really like 72 hours.

Laura: Wow.

Stephen: It was crazy.

Laura: Oh my goodness. So then did you have to shut it down?

Stephen: Yeah. I never really had to make that executive decision; it just kind of shut itself down because we couldn’t get the funding and I was like, “All right, I should probably figure out some way to eat and put gas in the car.”

Laura: Right, so what did you do next?

Stephen: When I owned the mortgage company, one of the things I had learned was SEO, so I had learned how to market a website. We built this really beautiful website and I thought, “Oh my gosh. When we turn this thing on, we’re going to be millionaires!” The technology that we put into that website was way ahead of its time, so I thought, “Well, geez. Everybody is going to come to us.”

Well, we turned the website on and nothing happened. We researched and found this thing called SEO, or Search Engine Optimization and realized, okay, cool. We have to make the site show up in search results in order to get people there. I had learned over the course of about three years about SEO, so when the mortgage company went under, I took a job making $20,000 a year as a sales director for a smaller, new company and then on the side I took on a couple of clients to help them with their websites and their SEO.

I had just thought hey, if I could make a couple thousand bucks a month to be able to go on vacation and do some fun things in life and just not have to worry about where my next meal is going to come from, that would be really cool. One or two clients turned into an entire company between 2009 and 2014, and that was my first digital marketing company.

Laura: Very cool.

Stephen: Yeah, that’s how I got into it. I had a business partner and we have since parted ways and now I own my own company, Seequs Digital Marketing. We won a couple of awards with that company and it was a really, really cool experience and that is how I got into the digital marketing space as kind of full-time.

Laura: That’s a great story of how that came to be. Tell us more then what you do now with Seequs and how you help clients.

Stephen: Yeah, so like I said, Seequs’ overarching statement is we make websites work and it’s all about what do you need your website to do, what’s it’s primary objective, and then we help you accomplish that. So everything from web development and design, figuring out conversion, even a little bit into the social media side of things, and then just the good old-fashioned search engine optimization and getting more people to the site.

Laura: For sure. What are your best tips for someone listening for how they could improve their SEO? How would you give them tips to improve their SEO?

Stephen: Yeah, so when you back up and think about what SEO really is and what it’s trying to accomplish, think about a search engine. We’ll just talk about Google since that’s where most searches come from. Google’s number one objective is to provide the most relevant result to its client, which is the person that’s searching. When we think about it from that standpoint, really all SEO is is we’re trying to make a website the most relevant website for a set of search terms or some keywords – whatever you want to call it.

But when somebody is looking for something, we want to make your website the most relevant for it and as smart as Google is, it’s still a machine. It can only figure out letters that are strung together to make words and words that are strung together to make phrases. Now, it’s getting more intelligent everyday but still what I mean by that is if you’re selling blue widgets, you have to talk about blue widgets on your website for Google to know that that’s what you’re relevant for.

When you do this whole SEO thing, just think about what’s going to make your site relevant. You’re selling blue widgets, so talk about blue widgets. Blog about blue widgets. Answer commonly asked questions that people might have about a blue widget if they were looking to buy it. Then also talk about problems that a blue widget can solve, even though people might not know that that’s one of the things that it can do.

When you look at it from that standpoint, it makes everything a lot easier, as opposed to thinking, “Okay, I’ve got to go out, I’ve got to get backlinks, I’ve got to do metadata, I’ve got to do content, I’ve got to do blogging, I’ve got to do social media.” It can be really overwhelming really, really quick.

Laura: That’s true. What are some content strategies that you would lay out for somebody?

Stephen: With content strategy, it’s going to depend on your competition. I mean if you really want to look at it from an SEO standpoint and not just I’m going to add as much value as I can to the potential client, if you really want kind of the technical side of things, it’s going to be the top ten results that show up in Google (at least organically, not the paid listings), those show up because those are the most relevant. Well, you only have to beat out the number ten to get to the number nine spot and then so on and so forth until you get to number one.

All you have to do is figure out okay, well what are spots number nine, eight, seven, and six doing in terms of content? How much content are they putting out? If everybody on the first page is only blogging or adding new content let’s say once a quarter to their website, then you should add once a month; that’s plenty. You’re only competing against those people that are showing up on those top ten spots. You’re not competing against every website on the internet.

CNN puts out tons of content but the blue widget world maybe only puts out content once a quarter, so you only have to compete against your industry when it comes to SEO and content creation. Figure out what your competition is doing. If they’re putting out content once a quarter, go once a month. If they’re putting out content once a week, you might want to look at two a week or at least like five or six pieces of content per month.

Then you’ve got to put out content that is going to be relevant and actually of interest. What happens is let’s say six or seven years ago now with SEO, you could just put out a bunch of mediocre content that was stuffed full of keywords and you could do that a couple of times a week and you would show up first. Well now, the way that Google ranks, they look at a lot of other factors, as opposed to just the piece of content itself and how many keywords it has.

It looks at things like customer engagement or visitor engagement. What I mean by that is when somebody comes to your site or let’s say they find one of your pieces of content or a blog article, how do they interact with it? If they get to the page and they leave right away (which is referred to as bounce rate), then Google looks at that and says, “Okay, you’re really not that relevant. Yeah, you have a bunch of content around it, but nobody is reading it, everybody is leaving, it must not be very good, so we’re not going to show you as high in the search result.” So there’s some of that SEO side of stuff to think about nowadays when we talk about content creation that we didn’t have to worry about six or seven years ago.

Laura: For sure, and trying to figure out ways to pull the reader in and maybe engage further.

Stephen: Yeah, because the next part of this conversation could really spill over into the whole psychology of it, right? I mean, how are you engaging with that reader? What type of a story are you telling? How does your content actually flow? I guess this is kind of basics, but do you have a good opening, middle, and closing? Do you have some sort of action step that happens after that?

A lot of websites will have really good content written by somebody like yourself or I’m sure some of the people listening that are great writers but there’s no call to action at the end, so it kind of leaves them hanging. A lot of times, I find that’s from fear of not wanting to be rejected, so if you don’t want to be rejected, you just don’t ask because then you can’t be rejected.

But at the end of the day, most people have a website in order to have people do something. Even if it’s just sign up for a free newsletter, that’s still a call to action and it’s got to be in there. You’ve got to meet peoples’ needs with your content and then if you’ve added enough value through your content, it’s okay to ask for something at the end.

Laura: Definitely, and I think going into it as well, knowing that not everyone is going to take it will help psychologically.

Stephen: Yeah, I mean it’s going to be a really low percentage, actually. Most conversion rates are in the single digits. Some will get up in the tens and twenties but that’s somebody that’s been doing this a long time and they have a very niche market. I wouldn’t expect your conversion rate to be over double digits, especially not if you’re just starting with something.

Laura: Right, so going with realistic expectations of it doesn’t hold you back from moving forward as you don’t feel like a failure. You know that you’re making progress that you’ve just got to put it out there and let it grow.

Stephen: Yeah, I love that. That’s a great mindset to go into it with.

Laura: Cool. What are your thoughts about internal linking? Maybe you write a blog on blue widgets, within that article you also link it to a different blog you wrote on purple widgets and kind of encourage a bit of people moving around your website as well if it’s relevant.

Stephen: Yeah, that’s a great question and it’s very important to do that. What Google looks at when it crawls the whole site is it looks for user experience. If you link to other pages when appropriate, now you’ve made that user’s experience on your site better and easier, so Google likes that.

It also helps Google figure out what’s important; you know, what your site is about. Like you said, if you link from blue widgets to purple widgets (obviously assuming it’s relevant), Google now knows, “Oh, cool. So you also work with purple widgets. Let me kind of turn the whole site and see how relevant you are for purple widgets.”

Laura: Right, cool. What about some tips for someone who is listening who maybe feels like they’re not a great writer? How that can they maybe overcome that or create content otherwise that still works for these goals that we’re talking about, even though they feel like they’re not a great writer?

Stephen: Great question. I’m a terrible writer, almost to the point where I loathe writing because I open up a new sheet and I get blank page syndrome and I don’t know where to start, then I get frustrated and I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” For years I dealt with this and I would finally have to force myself to write content. It would take me like a day to write one blog post. I mean, it wasn’t ideal.

A couple of years ago with a mentor of mine, we were talking about this and he helped me with a really good idea. He said, “You speak well. Why don’t you just speak your content, have it transcribed, and then you can edit it a little bit?” I started doing that not too long ago and it’s made a huge difference in the amount of content and even the quality of content that I’ve been able to write.

Laura: Great.

Stephen: I highly recommend it for people. There’s a lot of options. You can just use the voice recorder on your phone but there’s an app called Rev – R-E-V. You can just search it in the App Store. It’s a recorder, so it will record your voice and then if you want to, you click a button when you’re done and it will send it to a human transcriptionist. I think it’s about a dollar a minute and generally within about an hour or so, I’ll have a transcription of that back. They take out all the ums and pauses and all that kind of stuff.

Laura: So you could talk for five minutes and get basically a first draft of a great blog for five dollars?

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. What I’ve found based on how fast my brain thinks or just at the speed of which it thinks and I can talk, in ten minutes I generally get about a thousand words.

Laura: Yeah.

Stephen: Then that cuts down to about a 700-word blog or article.

Laura: And it’s so much easier to edit something that’s already there than just start with a blank white screen.

Stephen: Yeah, that was my big thing. I really struggled with the white screen and it was just like writer’s block or whatever you want to call it, but it was not fun. That was huge for me. If you want, I have an actual transcriptionist that I use as well. Now she is a little bit less expensive than Rev and she’s a little bit better.

Laura: Yeah?

Stephen: It’s just not quite as instant. You know, it takes a couple of days for her and her team to get through stuff. But the layout is a lot better when it gets back and she’ll kind of edit some things.

Laura: Yeah, that would great. We could even link her out in the show notes if you are comfortable with that.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. Her name is Jennifer Peterson and I’ll make an introduction.

Laura: No relation.

Stephen: Yeah, I’ll make an introduction to you guys on Facebook or something —

Laura: Very cool.

Stephen: — if there’s value there. She’s fantastic.

Laura: Awesome! You have a podcast as well called Business Revolution. Do you have some of those podcasts ever transcribed?

Stephen: I do. I’ve had a few of them transcribed. Actually, most of the podcasts get transcribed just for the show notes section of the website. I don’t do a whole lot with that content because most of my content I’ve created bits and pieces of it over time and then that’s what I end up doing a podcast on.

Laura: Gotcha.

Stephen: So a lot of times I’ll create two or three smaller pieces of content and then somebody will say, “Oh, wow. There’s value in this combination,” and then that’s what I’ll do a podcast on.

Laura: I see you’re still repurposing too, which I love. I’m all about that.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. I think at least for me and I think for some other people, it feels weird at first to repurpose it. It almost feels like you’re cheating, but what I’ve found is that that’s not true. A lot of times people will miss content, so they’ll miss a blog post, they’ll miss a podcast episode. A lot of times, they’ll only really see that content once on one platform anyway.

As we know with people, you have three different types of primary modalities for how people learn and consume information. You have auditory, visual, and kinesthetic, and so somebody might like to listen and then somebody else might like to read, and then somebody else might like to watch a video.

Laura: I was a teacher (or I kind of still am a teacher, actually) but learning languages in particular, I think there’s something around you have to hear a word like thirteen times to really remember it, so that kind of goes to this as well. I’m thinking that even if someone let’s say read a blog post about blue widgets, it doesn’t mean they’re now experts in it.

To see now a video later and hear a podcast article two weeks from now, it’s going to help that information really sink in, so it’s not like you just say or write about something once and it’s done. You should keep on continuing to talk about it for yourself and for others to really benefit from it seems to me.

Stephen: Yeah, I agree completely. That’s a great point that I had never really thought about it quite that way. But yeah, I think people want to see things over and over, especially if it’s something that they’re interested in in order to actually learn them.

Laura: Yeah, and each time you do it, you’re going to have a different example or different twist and it’s going to kind of sink in in a different way, so that’s cool.

Stephen: Yeah.

Laura: How about video in particular, because I saw on your Facebook that you’ve got Facebook Live – is it daily tips?

Stephen: Yeah, it’s pretty much daily. I call them “daily tips” but —

Laura: You might miss one every once in a while.

Stephen: — every once in a while. Yeah, you know, I miss one every once in a while.

Laura: Understandable.

Stephen: It can be challenging to put out. I don’t know how many workdays there are in a year, but five videos a week with good content. Some days I just don’t feel like I have a good topic or I’m not excited about talking about something, so I won’t do the video.

Laura: Yeah.

Stephen: I’d rather not force it.

Laura: That makes sense. Why did you decide to do this? How does it help in terms of SEO, user engagement, content production, and all those things? What were kind of the pros that you have found going into it?

Stephen: I started doing it because I used to hate being on video, I used to hate hearing the sound of my own voice, and that’s stuff that I think a lot of us struggle with. So I’m a firm believer that if something scares you or it’s fearful, then you should probably do it.

Laura: Yeah.

Stephen: And so I thought, “Well okay, cool. I’ll do a selfie video and then put that on Facebook and that’s really scary.” Then I thought, “All right, how do I make this even more uncomfortable and make sure that I actually do it?” That was right around the time Facebook Live came out and I said, “All right, let’s just do this. Now I can’t go back on it, I can’t record the video and not publish it.”

Laura: Right!

Stephen: It’s live, so that’s why I actually started doing the Facebook Live videos was to get out of my comfort zone. I know I had information to share and I tell myself, “Okay, it’s selfish if you don’t share something that could help somebody else.”

Laura: Sure.

Stephen: That’s why I started doing the Facebook Live. But to tie that all back into the importance of video, SEO, and content creation, Google loves to see content in a lot of different formats because they know that people like to consume things in different formats. If you have an active blog and if you have even a little bit of a social media presence around your website and then now you’re creating videos as well, all of that ties back into your relevance online.

By creating video, you’re adding more content to your website and to your online presence, so you’re more likely to rank higher. Then you can get into having the video transcribed. YouTube will actually do that for you automatically, so now you’re creating content as well and you’re giving users one more opportunity to engage with you, so video is really important.

Just what we talked about how people consume information, video is really the only one that you can hit on all three. You know, auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. It’s really the best medium to make somebody that’s kinesthetic, you can help them feel a certain way because you’re using all the senses.

Laura: That’s so important. Elaborate more on that and how someone can tie that in, because I think that’s fascinating.

Stephen: Yeah, so it’s hard like in audio, for example. This podcast that we’re recording, we can have different inflections in our voice and we could talk higher, lower, faster, and slower to try to relate to people, but they’re not getting the visual sense. They’re not able to use all of their senses to really feel. A kinesthetic person, somebody that learns or really associates with feeling, they’re not really getting all of the value that they potentially could be.

With video, now they can see your facial expression, they can hear the inflections in your voice, they can see how passionate you are, how helpful you really want to be, and how much value you’re truly trying to add. It’s going to resonate more with them, so they’re going to feel it more. It’s like in public speaking: people really won’t remember what you said, but people will remember how you made them feel.

If we could make people feel with our content, then they’re more likely going to do the things we want them to. If our product, you know, blue widgets resonates with them, they’re more likely to take action and sign up for a newsletter or request a quote.

Laura: Right, absolutely. Speaking of that, my last question: your website is beautiful, by the way, and I love your built-in lead capture forms. Is that custom developed, since you guys are a website design company or do you use a certain plugin, platform, or something that someone could also use?

Stephen: Are you referring to the Seequs website or the Business Revolution?

Laura: Yeah.

Stephen: Okay, cool. For the digital marketing website, yeah, we use a couple of different things. I mean, our sites are really basic from a coding standpoint and we do that because the faster your website loads and moves, the higher you’re going to rank in search, so keep your websites as simple as you can. The fewer plugins you can use, the better. But for the most part we use Formidable for a lot of our forms and it just makes it really simple to create those. Then depending on what your objective is, that will feed into a lot of CRM type systems like Constant Contact, MailChimp, and Active Campaign if you’re using one of those, so now you’re automating your systems so you’re not having to manually do work.

Laura: For sure.

Stephen: But yeah, we try to keep things really, really basic from the actual development standpoint. A lot of our time and energy when we build websites goes into thinking through what’s the customer experience, what’s the action we want them to take, how we want them to feel, and what problem do we want to solve for them.

Laura: Right. Well, I think that your website is beautiful – slick, in a good way, not in a sleazy way at all.

Stephen: Awesome, thank you.

Laura: Yeah, and I just want to point out – I’m looking at the homepage right now – you’ve got a free instant SEO report on there, so if anyone wants to get a free report on their website, I see that they can fill that in and just kind of check out a really nicely designed user experience type of a website layout. I just want to give you a plug there because I’m looking at it right now and it looks really good.

Stephen: Awesome. Yeah, it’s a cool tool. It’ll point out issues with your website, so does it load fast enough? Is it mobile-friendly? Do you have toxic backlinks pointing to your site? Do you not have enough pages? Where do you rank for a couple of your main keywords? Yeah, it’s really cool. It’s free, it’s instant – well, it takes about ten minutes once you enter all of your information – and then it’ll send you the report right then.

Laura: And that’s Seequs – S-E-E-Q-U-S — .com? I’ll also link it out on the show notes, but in case anyone was listening it’s like, “Tell me the URL!”

Stephen: Awesome.

Laura: I want to make sure I said that. How else can people get in contact with you socially online if they want to reach out and connect?

Stephen: I’m most active on Facebook. If you search Stephen – S-T-E-P-H-E-N – Christopher on Facebook, generally I’m the first person to come up. I think my actual handle is stephen.christopher1 on Facebook, but you can just search me there. Then if you really want to get interactive, we just started not too long ago a Facebook group for Business Revolution for my podcast.

I loosely do some coaching as well for business owners within that. I don’t take on paid clients but I’m more than happy to answer questions about business in there and then even from a marketing standpoint. You can just go to Facebook and then type in Business Revolution, and then there’s a closed group or you can find it from the website at bizrevolution.com.

Laura: Awesome. I will link that out on the show notes as well.

Stephen: Awesome.

Laura: Well, thank you so much for your great insights today, Stephen. Well Stephen, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed this conversation and look forward to talking with you again in the future.

Stephen: Yeah, thank you so much, Laura. I really appreciate it.

Laura: Oh, great. Bye.

[End of interview]

Conclusion: Just fabulous insights. What was your favorite part of today’s interview? Tweet me at @lsp_s. I would love to hear your thoughts and feedback. Now, here is your homework: we mentioned a lot of things in this episode and we do that in pretty much all the episodes – too much to take notes on sometimes.

I invite you to text the word NETWORK to 44222. Text the word NETWORK with no spaces to the number 44222 and I’ll email you the links back to the main website and to where you can find all the show notes for every single episode from today and other episodes from the past (and the future), no matter when you’re listening to this.

There, you’re going to find highlights from each episode, along with social links to all the guests and to me so that you can connect with us and grow your network. Thanks so much for listening and until next time, this is Laura Peterson reminding you to find copy that pops.

Outro: Thanks for listening. To learn more and find additional resources visit www.copythatpops.com. Please subscribe, rate, and review if you’re enjoying the show and we’ll see you next time.