In this episode, I sit down with Victor Adefuye who is the CEO and Founder of Dana Consulting. We discuss ego, sales, psychology, and why you need to ask good questions for business success.
- Why Victor considers himself an “armchair psychologist” [7:24]
- How Victor helps his reps and clients overcome their roadblocks [9:55]
- Why it’s important to understand the emotional state of the client [12:53]
- One thing people are surprised to learn about objection handling [16:34]
- How Victor coaches his clients on shifting their language [20:25]
- Why Victor helps his clients develop scripts for interviewing clients [26:40]
- Victor’s recommended books for sales and psychology [27:51]
Victor Adefuye is a sales consultant for entrepreneurs, a serial entrepreneur, an armchair psychologist, and the CEO and Founder of Dana Consulting.
Dana Consulting was founded to help change the perception of sales. Too many entrepreneurs fail to achieve growth or acquire their ideal customers because they’ve never received education in sales best practices and because of the complex emotions involved. Dana provides entrepreneurs with the confidence, strategy, and skills to tackle sales, and achieve their highest potential.
“One of the things that excites me about sales is that it’s such a psychological enterprise.” – Victor Adefuye
- Venice Bites Tours
- Ego Is the Enemy (Book)
- Attachment Theory (from Positive Psychology)
- Emotional Intelligence in Sales (Book)
- SPIN Selling (Book)
- The Hardest Thing for People to Overcome in Business: Ego (Blog Post) – link coming soon
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(Let me know if you see any errors so I can fix them up! – transcription by Jennifer Peterson Transcription & Editing Services)
Introduction: Welcome to Copy That Pops, the only podcast that goes deep into the psychology and strategies behind getting more traffic, more conversions and more sales from your digital copy and marketing efforts. Join Laura and her guests as they share actionable advice, step by step strategies and psychological research to help you earn more with your online business than ever before. Here’s your host, Laura Petersen.
Laura: Hey there, everybody. Greetings today from New Hampshire. I’m officially back in the United States for this introduction. But the interview that you’re going to hear in a couple of minutes was actually recorded in Germany a couple of months ago and it marks the final episode that I recorded while living there.
A lot has happened since then, so to bring you up to speed, my husband, our dog Tuck and I spent an entire month in Italy – well, probably more like five weeks – and I got to visit this small town that my great-grandmother Lena was from. I got to meet a second cousin in Venice who is running amazing food tours with her husband. They created a company called Venice Bites Tours, so check them out if you’re in the area. You will not regret it.
Then we spent about two and a half weeks after that in Ireland. We started out in Dublin, visiting a great girlfriend of mine and her family. She and I met originally back in an airport in Peru (I think in 2010), so it was really cool to meet her family and see where she is from. Then we headed out to the west and we stayed on the western coast in an Air B&B with a lovely couple and their three sheepherding dogs. We even got a private tour and a lesson on sheepherding and sheep shearing. I guess they had over 700 sheep; it was really cool. Check out my Instagram for pics and even some videos of that.
Then we headed back to Dublin and flew to Boston. Now we’re up in New Hampshire visiting my husband’s side of the family for a couple of weeks. This weekend is Labor Day Weekend; we are going to head back down to Boston to see my husband’s sister, her husband, and their four month-old baby who we have not met yet. We will also take a quick trip down to New York City to visit some friends, old and new, including today’s guest.
Today’s guest is Victor Adefuye and he is an attorney turned serial entrepreneur, a bit of an armchair psychologist, and the CEO and founder of Dana Consulting. Dana Consulting works primarily with business-to-business companies and was founded to help change the perception of sales, because too many entrepreneurs are failing to achieve growth or acquire their ideal customers because they never received education in sales best practices and because of the complex emotions involved, both for the person selling and for the potential customer.
Dana Consulting provides entrepreneurs with the confidence, strategy, and skills needed to tackle sales and achieve their highest potential, which is what we’re really going to dive into today. We look at psychology, emotion, and even ego behind selling and behind being successful in business in general. If you love Twitter or Instagram, I encourage you to jump on there and check out my handle @LaptopLaura, where I’ll post pictures of Victor and me meeting for the first time in person in New York City. Of course, I would love to hear from where in the world you’re listening right now. But let’s jump into the interview, so without further ado, here’s Victor Adefuye.
Laura: Well, hi there, Victor. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Victor: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Laura: Yeah, I’m excited to talk more. Tell everybody how you would introduce yourself maybe at a new networking event.
Victor: Sure, yeah. I think the way that I describe what I do is I say that I’m a sales and marketing consultant for entrepreneurs. I’m the CEO and founder of Dana Consulting, which is an organization that helps entrepreneurs to develop the skills and the strategy they need to acquire their ideal customers.
Laura: Very cool. You’re living in New York, right?
Victor: Yes, I am. I’m based in Brooklyn and I love every minute of it.
Laura: Nice! Did you grow up in New York as well or where are you from?
Victor: I did grow up in New York – I grew up on Long Island, actually, so basically. Other than law school and undergrad, I’ve lived in New York my – well, no. I was born in Africa —
Laura: Oh, wow!
Victor: Yeah, I moved here when I was five and then I’ve lived in New York the entire time except for law school and undergrad.
Laura: That’s so cool. What country in Africa?
Victor: In Nigeria.
Laura: Oh, neat. I think I saw somewhere on your social profile. Did you study abroad in Spain?
Victor: Yes. Yes, I did. I was in Valencia.
Laura: Oh, a beautiful place.
Victor: It was one of the best experiences of my entire life. I haven’t been back because, you know, to some extent you have to prioritize where you go on vacation —
Laura: Yeah, it’s so hard.
Victor: I know. But I love Spain passionately. I’ve spent a lot of time in Andalusia, you know, the Alhambra, one of my favorite places on earth. Yeah, I love Spain and I was there during 9/11, which is an interesting story probably worthy of its own full podcast. But yeah, it was a great —
Laura: Were you studying abroad then?
Victor: Yes, I was.
Laura: I was studying abroad in Germany the exact same year, so we must be the same age.
Victor: Yes, yes. Yeah.
Victor: It was a scary but also very interesting experience and particularly coming back to the United States, right?
Victor: Like I remember walking out of Penn Station and just like emerging in the city for the first time and there were American flags everywhere.
Victor: Yeah, it was interesting.
Laura: I had the same experience because in Germany of course, the news covered it but nowhere near the extent that they did in the U.S. When I came back the following year in July, still there were flags on every lawn and there were stories on the news still about families. I was just like, “Whoa! I didn’t get any of that in Germany, really.”
Laura: Not to make a commentary one way or another, but it was just a very different experience having not been here during it.
Victor: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Laura: And you’re being from New York, oh my goodness. Oh, we definitely could have a whole podcast on this route. We probably shouldn’t go down that path because you probably have a million stories too of family and friends who were affected.
Victor: Yeah, it was a very, very scary time. I don’t know if you remember or not being able to call the U.S. for a while and just figuring out what was going on with family was really difficult. The internet was not really working very well and it was the days before social media.
Victor: Just the communication was a real challenge but thankfully everyone was okay. Yeah, it was quite the experience.
Laura: Oh my goodness, we’ll have to do a round two just to talk about that.
Laura: Fascinating – we could talk about the psychology of it and I really do want to jump into psychology because you once said to me that you consider yourself part of an armchair psychologist?
Victor: Yeah, I do in many significant respects. I think sales – one of the things that excites me the most about sales is the fact that it’s such a psychological enterprise. When you think about the specific job description, pick up the phone, tell people what you do, find out what their needs are, and then convince them that you can solve a problem of theirs, it’s not that hard. It’s not like writing code or anything like that. But what usually makes it challenging is the psychology aspect of it, the emotions that go on, the thoughts that happen between the salesperson’s ears, and managing that dynamic with the prospects also, because they have their own emotions that they’re bringing to the interaction. Yeah, I’ve just always been fascinated with people and I think that sales is the job that probably engages you the most with the psychological aspects of people, so I love it for that reason.
Laura: That’s interesting. I know I’m terrified of “sales” and even just interviewing people on the podcast, I’m not that scared of it but I still have little butterflies. I still get a little nervous like, “Oh my gosh, am I going to sound okay?” Even just that performance feeling when you have to get on the phone and talk to somebody who you’re trying to work with beyond just talking is definitely a psychological barrier you have to overcome.
Victor: Yeah, absolutely. I love it because as my career has progressed and I’ve become more of a sales coach and manager than an actual salesperson, I just get so much pleasure out of working with people and helping them to really uncover what’s going on with them. What is that hurdle to engaging with their customers and speaking to their customers? People say that they want to do certain things but then when the lights are on an it’s show time, sometimes they don’t always act in a consistent way, so really helping people to uncover their motivations and uncover their fears and overcoming their hurdles is something that I find tremendously rewarding.
Laura: Can you give an example of maybe someone you’ve worked with recently that comes to mind and a challenge they’ve had and how you guys identified a hurdle and overcame it?
Victor: Yeah. I have a client right now who I trained, a junior salesperson, and helped him learn the ropes in terms of sales best practices and then I manage him on an ongoing basis. We have daily phone calls and weekly phone calls. I’m not going to reveal his name because he might not want me to tell his story.
Victor: But there were things going on in his personal life that were a challenge, particularly related to his relationship. On the one hand, you would think that this is work, so work is work and the things that are not work should not be interfering with work, but that’s completely unrealistic. It’s particularly unrealistic when it comes to sales. I just saw him struggling a little bit in terms of his motivation and I knew that that could have an impact on his results, so we spent a lot of time really processing that together and really trying to get to the root of the problem and helping him to resolve it in his head, helping him to better separate the anxieties connected to the challenges he was having with his girlfriend and the challenges that he was having conducting sales calls.
I truly believe that a sales manager’s job (and I think that this is where we can get into the psychology of things) is not very dissimilar to a parent. The nerd in me that’s very interested in things like psychology and particularly like attachment theory, I think it’s absolutely crucial for a sales manager in particular to be available for the people that work under him or her and to help them manage the emotional side of life so that they can really feel confident enough to go out there and reach their highest potential.
So yeah, I think psychology and sales are very strongly intertwined and you’ve got to address the emotional side of things if you really want to be successful.
Laura: That’s so true. You have a blog that you’re working on. By the time this podcast goes live, it will definitely be live on your website, talking about how a lot of people don’t acknowledge the emotional side to sales to their detriment. I wonder if you could talk about that, even specifically with your sales copy or landing page copy. How can you better tie into the emotion that is going on inside of the prospect and maybe inside of your own head and company to better align things?
Victor: Yeah, I think as it relates to landing pages and marketing copy, I think the most important thing is to really understand the emotional world of the client. At its core, sales is about change management. It’s about getting people to take action that changes their current circumstance into presumably something that’s better. Human beings are generally inclined to stay the same. You know, our brains like predictability. [Police sirens in the background.]
Laura: It was thunder storming here earlier in Germany and I was like, “Oh, it might be kind of cool if we could actually hear some thunder on the podcast.” Now it’s sunny and it just changed on a dime.
Victor: We have police cars. But yeah, I think understanding the psychological world of the client is really, really important and understanding that your job is to convince them of a brighter future or just changing in the sense of really getting to the root of the pain and the consequences of their current today, helping them to picture what that brighter future looks like.
We’re inclined to stay the same; there’s so many examples of that in normal everyday life: people who stay in bad relationships, people who stay in bad jobs. Predictability is something that the mind values a lot, so you have to be able to first of all acknowledge that’s the case and then really focus on helping prospects to understand the benefits of you are offering them and how that’s going to make their life significantly better than today.
Also, it’s that you’ve thought of the objections and the hurdles that are required in the change process to smoothly transition that. To the extent that it connects to landing pages and marketing copy – I know that you believe this as well – that really focusing on the benefits as opposed to just listening to features of your product or service is a really important approach.
Laura: Yeah, and I think you bring up a good point too in your blog or what you’re alluding to now. All of the obstacles that go along with making the change, because I remember my COO of my tutoring company came to me just like a month ago and said, “Hey, I got a call from a payment processor and they can save us XY% or whatever on all of our transaction payments.” In my head I was like, “No thanks,” because I’m just imagining all the trouble that’s going to go into making sure that that new payment processor synchs up with our Infusionsoft account and like all this other stuff.
Laura: So obviously, if that guy had talked to me, he probably would have been able to adjust those. But in my mind I’m thinking, “Even though there is this benefit of saving money, what are the other costs that are going to come along with it?” I think that addressing those with the client and kind of anticipating what they’re going to fear or —
Laura: — yeah.
Victor: Yeah, absolutely. You know, none of this stuff is that hard or unpredictable, right? People are surprised to learn that if you spend the time and you think through common objections in sales situations, you can probably think through the questions and think through the responses that will be relevant like 90+ percent of the time.
People will have the same challenges and people will focus particularly on those transaction costs, like the short term costs that they will have to incur and you have to, as an organization, I strongly encourage my clients to take the time and think through those hurdles themselves and figure out ways to actually resolve them. And not resolve them in the way that’s like, “Oh, this isn’t that big of a problem –”
Victor: — in a dismissive way.
Laura: I hate that.
Victor: Exactly. You kind of have to acknowledge and validate the prospect’s concern and then show them that you’ve thought about it in a thoughtful way and that you’ve helped address and lower some of those transaction costs. If they don’t feel – not just intellectually understand, but actually feel that you’ve designed a solution that’ll help smoothen that transition, they’re not going to buy because like you, they’re going to focus on those short term costs. I always say when people think about competitive analysis and alternatives people have to their own product or service, one of the biggest challenges that they face is doing nothing, right? It’s not like, “Oh, I’m going to compare you to your other competitor.”
Victor: It’s often, “I’m comparing you to the status quo.”
Victor: You have to understand that when you meet people, their status quo most of the time is okay. You have to show them that (a) uncover the things about the status quo that are unsatisfactory and then (b) show them that the transition is something that you’ve thought through and that you can do in a way that lessens the negative impacts that they fear.
Laura: I think that’s a great point to really think it through and also design ways to mitigate those pain points to take them through the process and not just try to get the sale and be done. Really show them that you’re going to be there through the entire transition period. I feel like sometimes when I’m talking to a salesperson when they just say, “Oh, yeah, yeah. We thought of that. No worries, we’ll take care of you,” I can kind of almost feel it or sense it in their voice and the response that they haven’t really.
If I get that sense that they’re not fully answering my questions, it’s red flags and I just don’t do it.
Victor: Yeah, exactly. Those things can be planned out. I work primarily with new companies but I work with older, more established organizations as well. I force them to go through a process of creating that list of frequently asked questions and creating that list of objection, really thinking through not only what your solution will be, but the way that you respond in a live situation to those objections. You have to respond in a sensitive way; you have to respond in a way that makes the customer feels like they’re being acknowledged and their concerns are being validated. Not like kind of brushing through it and brushing it off, because that’s going to kill the sale.
Laura: Right. How do you get them to really also use the language that the client would use, instead of business jargon? Sometimes we tend to use words that make sense to us internally, but it’s not how the client would talk. How do you coach people through that?
Victor: Yeah, I mean that’s a very, very good point and it’s actually something that I interacted with just last week, I believe. I was working with a client who provides IT services to small businesses, so for those companies can’t afford to hire a full-time IT person, he is like their outsourced solution. He has this moral – I don’t know if it’s moral, but some sort of objection to viewing his services as a helpdesk.
He’s like, “Oh, I’m so much more sophisticated than that. I do cloud, I do all this other stuff,” and the way that I hopefully turned him around on it is that, “Look, you have a very short period of time when you’re interacting with a new client to help them understand what you do for them – the problem that you solve for them. And yeah, if you can spend that one minute or two minutes before they rush to judgment about whether this is something that’s relevant to them, trying to explain the twenty features that you offer and all that stuff, or you can do it in ten seconds and make an allusion to something that they already understand.”
“I know that you may think that the description of your service or some components of your service as a helpdesk is something that diminishes you, but in the client’s eyes, it doesn’t diminish them because as we just experienced, if the computer goes down, the fear that kind of bubbles up is significant and having a resource that’s available that you can call on to help you as soon as possible solve their problem is something that really resonates with people on an emotional level.” I try to convince them that you have to communicate in a concise way and really create a picture that resonates with the client.
Laura: That makes me think too about ego, almost like taking your ego out of things in order to communicate as clearly as possible. Actually, Tim Ferris just had someone on his podcast talking about taking the ego out of stuff. I haven’t listened all the way through but it just kind of connected with me on that one. Do you find that too in terms of coaching people that you have to kind of work through that? Not that anyone is egotistical necessarily, but just that taking your own pride and self-awareness out of it.
Victor: Yeah, yeah. Look, maybe it’ll be up by the time this podcast is out, but I’ve been thinking very strongly about writing a blog post that says, “The hardest thing for people to overcome in sales is the ego.”
Laura: Oh, okay.
Victor: I also think it’s the hardest thing for people to overcome in business. It’s particularly relevant to today’s business environment, kind of the tech-enabled startups. I always make this analogy: I think the people who came off the boat on Ellis Island – the entrepreneurs who were fixing shoes or started a butcher shop, or any other services that they started with when they reached America – to some extent, they had an advantage that we don’t have. We don’t look at them as having an advantage, but when it relates to this question of ego, they had a very strong advantage that helped them be successful.
When they got off the boat and they had just $100 in their pocket (or whatever they had in their pocket) and they needed to sell their services to customers, they didn’t have the luxury that a lot of entrepreneurs and startups have today in the sense of, “I’m going to go into a room and I’m going to build a product or I’m going to design a service that I think is a solution to the client’s problems…” right? “…that I think is the best way to address their issues.”
The folks that got off the boat at Ellis Island were like, “I fix shoes. Tell me what you need. I will create the best shoe fixing service that is designed specifically for your need because in the short term, I want to do whatever I need to do so that you will pay me to provide this particular service.” I think that’s a real challenge for entrepreneurs. If you look at the reasons why most companies fail, they correlate very highly with a lack of what they call ‘product market fit.’
I think the root of that is creating a product, creating technology, investing in creating a technology, that is not built through engagement with the customer; that it’s built based on your perception of what you think is best for the customer. That, at its core, is an ego problem. There are so many times when I’m dealing with clients and I’m like, “I want you to go out there and interview twenty of your clients or your prospective clients,” and there’s a lot of resistance to that. They know that by opening themselves up to that, they might get feedback that could challenge their assumptions and then challenge some of the investments they’ve made in terms of time and effort in building out a solution.
For me, I think that short term pain is probably worth it, compared to the longer term pain of building a company that ultimately fails. But it’s a tough hurdle for people to get over and I think it’s kind of grounded in the ego.
Laura: Yeah, that’s so true. I mean, I even feel myself going through that, too because I don’t like getting on the phone and asking, either. But when I have done it, it reveals so much and people are really nice and just want to be helpful for the most part.
Laura: It’s kind of like one of those fears that once you push through it, it’s not as scary as you thought it was going to be.
Victor: Exactly, and if you have a game plan. A part of the service that I offer to my clients is helping them to develop scripts for interviewing their customers and their clients. I think to the extent that my career has kind of been circuitous, I think I’ve developed skills.
I started off my career as an attorney and I think part of what you hone in law school and in practicing law is the ability to ask good questions and listen, so I think that’s helped me developed those types of scripts for my clients so that they can go out and engage their customers and ask the right questions to get the right responses. I think having a game plan also helps mitigate some of the scariness of that type of activity.
Laura: Absolutely, and it doesn’t feel so aimless. You have certain objectives that you can kind of check off and it makes you feel like you have a purpose that’s a little bit more honed-in. I like that; it makes me feel good.
Laura: My nerdy brain is like, “Yeah, I can do that!”
Laura: Now, let me see. Do you have any books in particular that have been really impactful in terms of learning about psychology that you can apply to business, that you could recommend?
Victor: Yeah, there’s a book – I don’t remember the author’s name right now, but there’s a book called Emotional Intelligence for Sales Success that I think is really great. It touches on a lot of the issues that we’ve talked about today in terms of understanding the change management and looking at sales as change management from the customer’s perspective. I think that book has been really, really impactful but then there are other books. This is why I love sales where we started this conversation. If you read a lot of the best books in sales and when you really get down to it, they are psychology books.
Victor: You know, I feel like people read the business section and the books that are the most popular in the business section aren’t like How You Build a Spreadsheet, right? There are leadership books and self-management books and personal growth. I really think that business is just like a way that people try to – maybe men in particular – try to get around engaging in self-help, right? Because they don’t feel comfortable going to the self-help section, but they’re more comfortable going to the business section, but it’s the same stuff.
In terms of the best books for that, Spin Selling is a classic and it talks a lot about how to ask questions, particularly emphasizing the implications of the problems that your customers are facing, asking questions about the impact of that. It’s not just saying, “I solved this problem,” but asking them what are the second and third-order consequences of that problem existing, to really help the client think through those issues. I would recommend Spin Selling and I would also recommend Emotional Intelligence for Sales Success.
Laura: Awesome. I can look that up and put it on the show notes so that people can just click out to it and see the author once we find that, because I haven’t heard of that one in particular I’ve heard of Spin Selling, but not that one.
Victor: Yeah, it’s a newer book.
Laura: Yeah, I think the study of psychology should be mandatory for everybody.
Victor: I agree.
Laura: You know, even in these bad times of mass shootings and lots of really bad stuff, to me it comes back to psychology – and this is kind of going on a tangent – but people are afraid naturally of what they don’t know. That’s part of our human nature. It can be explained very clearly because of Evolution and if you’re not getting outside of your normal comfort zone circle, if you’re not traveling, if you’re not reading, if you’re not seeing other peoples’ perspectives different from your own, you’re going to have this sort of ‘us versus them’ mentality. You may think that the other side is ‘evil,’ that they need to be destroyed and we’re the good guys when really everyone is pretty darn similar and there are issues that we could talk through and really work out if we all came together.
Victor: Yeah, and I agree with you. I’ve believed this for a long time that basic psychology, in particular psychology as it relates to interpersonal relationships, should be something that’s taught at probably the middle school level and above. When people look back on their lives, they don’t look back and say, “I didn’t make enough money.” They usually look back on their lives and they value it based on the strengths of their relationships.
Those issues, the basic scales of self-esteem, interacting with people, and empathy, you may be lucky enough to grow up in a safe home environment where those things are nurtured. But a lot of people don’t have that and sometimes we may have to take responsibility as a culture to nurture those and tell people, “This is what we value.”
There are so many things – I learned Latin in high school. You know, I learned Calculus. I’ve never used Calculus since I graduated from high school or I’ve never learned Latin. But if there was education on these topics of emotional health and interpersonal relationships, I think that gives people the foundation to be able to live a happier life, not only in their personal life, but also in their business life.
Laura: Absolutely – perfectly put. Well, to put a little bow on it, what giveaway or the CTA would you like to share with the audience to drive people back to what you’re doing and what you’re all about?
Victor: Sure. So to bring it all back to business, I have a questionnaire that I’ve put together and it digests basically everything that I’ve learned in my entrepreneurial life. I’ve been a serial entrepreneur, building startups from scratch. I’ve had a lot of professional training in sales. For companies that are looking to acquire clients and particularly early stage companies, I believe that there are questions that kind of drive that strategy, so I’ve digested those questions into a questionnaire that I offer on my website.
The full questionnaire is a lot longer than the one I put on my website, but the one on my website is brief enough and touches on these core issues of the customer, of the market, of the organization’s goals. I’m offering people the opportunity to walk through that questionnaire in a free consultation, so people can reach out to me via the website and I’m happy to schedule a call with them to walk through these questions and give them advice for their business, based on it.
I love entrepreneurs, I love business, and the opportunity to learn about a whole new market and learn about a new product or service. It really excites me, so yeah, I would encourage everyone to reach out on the website. It’s www.dana-consulting.com and on that, you can find the link to the questionnaire and also to contact me.
Laura: Wonderful, and I’ll link it up on the show notes as well. In terms of social media or email, are there any other ways that are best to contact you?
Victor: Yeah, email is probably the best, so email@example.com. Just feel free to shoot me an email, ask me any questions about sales strategy, about developing go-to-market strategies. I love this stuff and I’m really passionate about it; it doesn’t feel like work. People can reach out to me there and of course, checking out the website at www.dana-consulting.com.
Laura: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. It’s been a great conversation. We’ll have to do a round two in the future.
Victor: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Laura: All right, talk to you later.
Victor: All right, bye.
Laura: Bye, Victor.[Post-call commentary]
Laura: Just fabulous insights. What was your favorite part of today’s interview? Tweet me at @LaptopLaura. I would love to hear your thoughts and feedback. Now, here’s your homework: we mentioned a lot of things in this episode and we do that in pretty much all the episodes – too much to take notes on sometimes.
I invite you to text the word NETWORK to the number 44222 and I’ll email you the links back to the main website and where you can find all the show notes for every single episode from today and other episodes from the past and the future, no matter when you’re listening to this. There, you’re going to find highlights from each episode along with social links to all the guests and to me so that you can connect with us and grow your network. Thanks so much for listening and until next time, this is Laura Petersen reminding you to find “copy that pops.”
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